Legislature(2013 - 2014)BARNES 124
03/13/2013 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB89 | |
| HB158 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | HB 89 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | HB 158 | TELECONFERENCED | |
1:45:02 PM
HB 158-DNR HUNTING CONCESSIONS
CO-CHAIR FEIGE announced that the final order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 158, "An Act authorizing the commissioner of
natural resources to implement a hunting guide concession
program or otherwise limit the number of individuals authorized
to conduct big game commercial guiding on state land."
CO-CHAIR FEIGE opened public testimony on HB 158. He asked
guides to identify themselves by their guide license number and
to indicate the number of hunts they conduct annually, as well
as the percentage of their income that is derived from guiding.
1:46:24 PM
WAYNE KUBAT, Master Guide 147, Alaska Remote Guide Service,
stated he has lived in the Matanuska-Susitna valley for nearly
forty years, conducts on average 8-12 full service hunts ranging
12-15 days in duration, which represents approximately 60-70
percent of his income.
MR. KUBAT provided his background such that he became an
assistant guide in 1981 and obtained his registered guide
license in 1986. He also joined the Alaska Professional Hunters
Association (APHA) as a professional member. In 1987, he
started his own guide business, Alaska Remote Guide Service. He
served on the Matanuska-Susitna Valley Fish and Game Advisory
Committee from 1998 to 2007, and served as chairman during his
last four years of service. In December 2012, he also began
serving on the APHA's Board of Directors. He stated this is the
first time he has traveled to Juneau and he did so because this
bill is important to him.
MR. KUBAT said he is here to testify in support of HB 158, which
will allow the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) to
establish a Guide Concession Program (GCP). Many members who
are opposed to the GCP have attempted to paint this as a "David
and Goliath" battle, with the APHA guides being "Goliath."
Certainly, he acknowledged the GCP would be a limiting plan;
however, the APHA guides would not fare any better as a group
than most other guides. Still, most APHA's guides are willing
to risk some sacrifice in the short term in hopes of stability
and viability for the guiding industry over time.
MR. KUBAT indicated approximately 1,400 licensed guides operate
in Alaska, of which 550 are registered and master guides who can
conduct hunts. He reported only 312 registered and master
guides contracted at least one hunt last year.
1:48:35 PM
MR. KUBAT indicated that APHA membership averages 125 members
per year or approximately one-third of the number of guides who
contracted guided hunts last year. However, research shows that
APHA's membership conducts approximately 50-70 percent of the
guided hunts in any one year.
MR. KUBAT stated that the APHA board held a teleconference with
its membership in January, with 45 of its members participating
on-line. While support for the GCP was not unanimous, a strong
majority supported the program. As a result, the APHA's BOD
voted unanimously to support the GCP and subsequently, for HB
158, which will authorize DNR to implement the program.
1:49:33 PM
MR. KUBAT said that when the state licenses other professionals,
such as pharmacists, hairdressers, or other professionals, they
don't provide free office space to them, but instead allow the
professionals to operate in the industry. He said it seemed to
him the state is offering "free" space to registered guides by
allowing anyone with a guide license to operate in up to three
guide use areas on state land for virtually no cost at all. He
offered his belief that this policy hurts the wildlife resources
as well as the quality of experience for thousands of Alaska's
resident hunters. While the 300 guides currently wonder how the
GCP will affect them, thousands of resident hunters will also be
affected by the bill, he said.
1:50:41 PM
THOMAS ATLIN DAUGHERTY, Registered Guide 1250, said he started
guiding when he was 18 years old and has been guiding for 10
years. He was born and raised in Juneau and is a third
generation Alaskan. He has worked as a commercial fisherman and
a big game guide. He has guided in most regions of the state,
including Southeast Alaska, Kodiak, Alaska Peninsula, Western
Alaska, and central Alaska, GMU 20, and the Arctic. He offered
his belief that guiding on federal lands with concessions is far
better for guides than guiding on state lands. He offered his
support for the GCP program. Furthermore, he believed that
changes to guiding must happen if younger guides are to have a
sustainable long-term industry. He hoped the committee would
give the DNR the tools to make this happen.
1:52:19 PM
CO-CHAIR FEIGE asked for the number of hunts contracted on
average.
MR. DAUGHERTY said he assists other guide-outfitters [and does
not contract hunts]. In further response to a question, he
indicated about 20 percent of his income is derived from guiding
hunters.
1:52:48 PM
LYLE BECKER, Registered Guide 1276, said he obtained his
assistant guide license in 2006, his registered guide license in
2009, and he guides about 8-10 clients per year. Approximately
70 percent of his annual income is derived from guiding
activities. Additionally, he spends about 90-100 nights per
year in a sleeping bag on the ground. While he is a registered
guide and could contract for hunts, he does not currently do so.
He began working for a registered guide on state lands in 2006
in GMU 14A for sheep. He said he noticed immediately the area
was overrun with guides and hunters. Within two years the area
changed from a general hunt to a drawing hunt permit. Thus his
initial experience in guiding was in an overcrowded area. He
said he learned his lesson that state land was not the place for
him to make long-term investments. In all good conscience, he
realized he couldn't tell clients that he would be able to
provide a quality hunt on state lands, even though he is legally
allowed to contract hunts. Thus he sought out guides he could
work for on federal lands to carve out a niche. Last year when
the rotation for permits on federal lands came up he applied for
an area and was awarded a small area. He characterized himself
as being an example of a guide who follows the rules and
benefits from guiding, noting guiding is his livelihood and
vocation.
MR. BECKER offered his belief that the GCP would reduce user
conflicts with resident hunters, which is a major concern. The
GCP could prevent some areas from going to drawing hunt permit
areas. Finally, the GCP would help provide hunters with a
quality experience.
1:55:39 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked how the GCP would create less
contact with resident hunters. He further asked whether that
would be due to less animals being taken.
MR. BECKER replied that [fewer hunters and less contact] is part
of it. He said it would depend on the area in the state, but in
his experience he has worked in areas with numerous guides
operating in small areas. He anticipated that fewer animals
would be taken under the plan. One other component under the
GCP that would reduce user conflicts is that the hunter would
know in advance the number of guides operating in an area.
Currently, whoever fills out the paperwork and wants to take a
client in an area could do so. Theoretically, 100 people could
land on one landing strip. However, if the GCP or a similar
system were implemented, the hunter would know in advance the
number of tags allocated to an area.
1:57:09 PM
REPRESENTATIVE TARR said one criticism she has heard about the
bill is that it would be more difficult for independent guides
to participate. She asked whether he would continue to work as
an assistant guide or if he would apply for one of the
concessions.
MR. BECKER answered that his goal is to be self-sustaining and
be a contracting guide for his own areas. Now that he has a
small area, which is for three brown bear and two moose hunts,
he'll be able to do so. While the income from guiding won't
sustain him for the year, little by little he hopes to acquire
other small concessions.
1:58:16 PM
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK inquired whether an assistant guide is
limited to hunting in the proximity of the [master or
registered] guide or if it is easy to transfer and hunt other
species of animals in different areas.
MR. BECKER clarified that a master guide or a registered guide
can contract for hunts in three guide use areas statewide. As
an assistant guide or as a registered guide functioning as an
assistant guide - as he has been doing - the guide shifts
around. In any given year, he has hunted for up to six
different contracting guides. He said that people with a normal
fulltime job usually cannot work for multiple guides. Instead,
those assistant guides will typically work with a guide in one
area.
1:59:31 PM
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK asked whether anyone can apply to become an
assistant guide.
MR. BECKER responded that the basic minimum qualifications for
guides include the applicant must hold a first aid card, have a
clean and clear violation record, plus spend time hunting in
Alaska, which he recalled was a minimum of approximately 60 days
of hunting. He further recalled the requirement to harvest a
big-game animal during that time period was recently dropped.
In response to Representative P. Wilson, he said he is an APHA
member.
2:00:36 PM
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON suggested it is helpful if testifiers
will identify whether they hold a membership with the APHA.
2:00:56 PM
HENRY TIFFANY IV, Master Guide 144, Alaska Perimeter
Expeditions, said he previously resided in Juneau and Anchorage,
but has resided in Fairbanks for the past 25 years. He said he
was lucky as a young man to find a vocation that ignited a
passion in him. Becoming a guide took time and dedication. He
learned guiding from others. He found the process valuable, and
is glad to have gone through the process. He fully supports HB
158. He has supported the [GCP] process ever since a group of
guides approached DNR to identify problems that exist on state
lands. He stated the majority of his income is earned through
guiding and the guides that work for him are all Alaskans. The
vast majority, if not all, of the income derived from his camps
stays in Alaska.
2:02:59 PM
MR. TIFFANY stated that many user groups in Alaska enjoy the
lands and resources. He emphasized his belief that the GCP
program would not affect negatively affect resident hunters.
The only difference would be that resident hunters would notice
fewer hunters in the field. As a resident hunter himself, the
fewer people he encounters, the better his experience has been.
He did not believe that the GCP would restrict resident hunters,
but would also benefit rural communities. He said if rural
residents find something amiss, but are acquainted with the few
guides working in their area, they can go to these guides and
discuss their problems; however, currently there may be so many
guides operating in an area that the residents wouldn't know who
to contact to address the issue.
MR. TIFFANY offered his belief that if guided hunts were changed
to drawing hunt permits, it would result in the death of
legitimate professional guiding. The majority of the income
would go to booking agents and companies that already exist,
such as Cabela's. Cabela's offer services to applicants on
drawing hunt permits. He predicted the market would be flooded
with agreements to particular guides who were willing to pay
Lower 48 companies more money if they will apply their clients
to book the drawing hunts. He expressed an interest in keeping
Alaska in good fiscal shape. He believed that the guiding
industry represents an important factor. He argued against
going down a path that could divert funds to Lower 48
corporations, which otherwise would stay in Alaska.
2:05:45 PM
CO-CHAIR FEIGE queried what Cabela's would have to do with
Alaska's guiding program.
MR. TIFFANY explained that some corporations, such as Cabela's,
offer a service to apply for drawing hunts throughout the Lower
48. He said in many states the only opportunity for a hunter to
participate in a hunt is through a drawing hunt process. He
explained that these companies have huge data bases of potential
clients and the ability to flood the market with clients. These
companies might offer guides an opportunity to guide hunters in
the field who draw a tag for a "bigger cut." He cautioned that
if a GCP or similar program is not implemented, the BOG will
need to make some hard decisions, such as one under
consideration to go to a drawing hunt permit. In all
likelihood, outside interest groups would gain more than other
groups within Alaska.
CO-CHAIR FEIGE asked whether the methods the corporations such
as Cabela's are keeping residents from drawing hunt permits.
MR. TIFFANY allowed his knowledge in this regard is general
because the areas he hunts are not drawing hunt permits, but he
did not think it would prevent a resident from applying. For
example, he surmised that if 10 non-resident permits will be
issued and 900 of the 1,000 applicants come from a specific
organization so it is likely that the organization's applicants
will have a better chance of obtaining those permits. In
response to a question, he acknowledged he is a member of the
APHA.
2:09:07 PM
STEVEN PERRINS, Master Guide 123, Rainy Pass Lodge, stated he
operates Rainy Pass Lodge, which is located in the Alaska range.
He said Rainy Pass Lodge is the oldest hunting lodge in Alaska,
commemorated last year for 75 years in business as a hunting and
recreational lodge. Although he has concerns with the proposed
guide concession program, he is in support of it. He said he
has been guiding in Alaska since 1977 and holds master guide
license number 123.
MR. PERRINS said he currently runs a business with his wife and
five sons, four of whom are guides. One son is a registered
guide and the other three are assistant guides. He said he has
guided on Kodiak since 1981. He purchased an area under the old
guide area system and when the Alaska Supreme Court issued its
decision [Owsichek] he lost his guide area. He reported that 18
guides applied for the permit, which he believed is currently
the most sought after permit for non-residents and multiple
guides on Kodiak Island.
2:10:47 PM
MR. PERRINS said he went from having a business guiding five
bear hunt clients per year to guiding seven bears per year;
however, with the current system he was only awarded one permit
last year and none for this spring. He said he has lost nearly
all of his business due to inconsistency in drawing hunt
permits. In fact, he previously was booked three years in
advance and considered one of the top-tier operators, who
provided a good-quality guided-service with permanent camps,
good accommodations, heat, and "the whole nine yards." He
characterized his clients as being among the wealthiest in the
world, but he also catered to clients who saved for five years
to go on their "dream hunt in Alaska." While the current permit
system is still in place and helps conservation, he offered his
belief the system has removed any business security for guides.
MR. PERRINS said he has clients waiting to draw hunting permits.
He has observed registered guides in the area that he
characterized as being "hobby guides" who do not have permanent
structures. He acknowledged there isn't anything wrong with a
hobby guide. However, more importantly, the guiding industry
generates a lot of revenue to the state, bringing positive
representation as a hunting destination - noting that Alaska and
Africa are still the two best known areas to hunt with
professionals. In fact, to maintain that image it is important
to protect the industry. He carried a guide license in Colorado
for several years and he also guided in Texas many years ago.
Those states with a drawing hunt permit system do not provide
any stability [for guides]. A rancher may attract some people
this year to hunt, but the next year his hunters may not draw
permits; however, the biggest difference is that the rancher
doesn't count on the hunts for his livelihood. He said, "This
business is my entire livelihood." He said he derives his
primary income from guiding.
2:13:11 PM
MR. PERRINS posed an analogy if one considered the airplane
charter services on Lake Hood as a whole that the view would be
it helps the folks travel to remote areas in Alaska. However,
only a small group of the charter services are businesses that
have survived for many years. Their safety record and
procedures keep them in business. In addition, there are a
group of "hobby pilots" who are in business one year and out of
business the next. Perhaps in year three these "hobby pilots"
will be back on Lake Hood trying to get the guide business
again, but those kinds of businesses don't create stability.
While it may give the pilots supplemental income, it simply
doesn't create stability. Perhaps these businesses allow them
to have tax advantages for their hobby, their airplane, and
their own personal hunting. However, that activity doesn't give
tourists or future hunters a stable industry, one that
continually strives to improve and invest in an industry to make
it better for the people they serve, such as the one that the
guides who earn a living attempt to do.
MR. PERRINS pointed out the difficulty in maintaining his
hunting structures when he only conducts a hunt with one hunter
per year. He offered his belief that the focus should be on the
industry and the people who guide for their livelihood since
they are the ones who will invest in their businesses.
2:15:26 PM
MR. PERRINS expressed his concern that currently there is no
transferability [of guide units]. He said he has 15 horses and
if one of his horses kicks him and he is injured, there should
be a provision so his business can continue to operate. He
emphasized that transferability is a must to keep the industry
solid. Investment in the business is important yet there is not
any credit for it. He said he has asked DNR consistently for an
industry representative [to serve on the board]. As much as he
wants a concession program supported by the legislature, he also
thinks some additional parameters need to be placed on [the GCP]
and it needs to be fixed during the process, not afterwards. He
said most guides share his concern.
MR. PERRINS predicted that a drawing hunt permit situation will
put him out of business even though he has the oldest hunting
lodge in Alaska. Granted, many other guides who count on this
as their livelihood will be put out of business, as well.
2:17:15 PM
ISRAEL PAYTON, Registered Guide 1111, stated that he is a
lifelong Alaskan and a registered guide, but is not a member of
APHA. He has guided on state and federal land for 17 years and
derives approximately 20 percent of his income from guiding. He
typically works for other contracting guides. He asked to
testify in opposition to HB 158.
MR. PAYTON expressed concern that DNR would be given the
authority to allocate small business in a free market system.
He wondered if the current administration's policy is to grow
the government. He focused attention on the carrying capacity
for hunting guides in the state. He said guides are currently
split on the answer. However, the decisions should be based on
facts, not on the current personal preferences, blanket
allegations, and anecdotal information pushed by a strong and
vocal segment of the industry.
2:18:34 PM
MR. PAYTON said the DNR reported on the level of guided hunters
in Alaska in appendix C, which he previously provided to the
committee [unidentified document]. In 2000, approximately 4,600
guided hunters were reported and in 2010, 3,000 guided hunters
were reported, which is a decrease of 1,600 guided hunters or 33
percent fewer hunts. In concluded this means there is less
pressure on the wildlife resources and less crowding in the
field in recent years.
MR. PAYTON, regarding the sheep scenario presented by ADF&G on
3/11/13, on GMU 13D and 14A, reported these GMUs are easy
driving distances from Anchorage and the Matanuska-Susitna
Valley. However, statewide sheep data from ADF&G's website
shows hunter participation and successful harvest has been
stable without any recent spikes during the past 29 years.
MR. PAYTON said in 1991, DNR proposed an action similar to HB
158, which would have limited fishing guides on the Kenai River.
He stated this proposal was denied by the attorney general's
office based on their view that the data did not support the
conclusion of overcrowding or indicate increased fishing
pressure. Additionally, the data did not indicate that limiting
the number of guides alone would help solve the problem if one
existed.
2:20:11 PM
MR. PAYTON said he asked DNR whether guided hunters coming into
the state would be reduced by this program. He reported that
DNR answered that none or very few non-resident hunters would be
reduced. He offered his belief that the problem is [allocation
of wildlife resources] between non-resident hunters versus
resident hunters. If the number of guided hunters will be
reduced, he asked how the GCP would address the alleged problem.
He characterized the proposed program as being a guide
competition program. He understood that individual guides would
want to be the only ones allowed to operate their business in an
area. He also understood their arguments. However, turning to
previous testimony, the indication is that if guides are
restricted that air taxis and transporters will fill the void
with drop-off hunters. Besides, it isn't right to restrict one
group alone.
MR. PAYTON suggested if the committee decides that wildlife
management and stewardship are the true concerns, HB 158 needs
to be amended. He further suggested a proposed amendment be
adopted by DNR to not only limit hunting guides but to limit all
commercial operations related to non-resident hunters, including
air taxi and transporters who drop hunters in the field. Only
when DNR has developed a program to cover all commercial user
groups simultaneously, should the GCP or a similar program be
implemented.
2:21:43 PM
MR. PAYTON offered his belief that current hunting guides are
fighting among themselves. He recalled Mr. Spraker's testimony
[Chair, Board of Game] that the true problem is not a guide
problem. It is a people problem. Hence, this means too many
hunters. Thus he asked members to consider this perspective.
Additionally, the proposed program doesn't provide any money to
the general fund or a fish and game fund since fees are based on
administrative costs of the program. Therefore, the state would
be allocating the state's natural resources to a commercial
operation without any direct benefit or royalty to the state.
In response to a question, he stated that his percentage of
income from guiding is approximately 20 percent. In the past
three years he has not contracted a hunt although he could do so
in guide units 16 and 19. In the 17 years that he guided on
state lands he had only one user conflict with another guide
during all that time.
2:24:18 PM
PETER BARELA, Registered Guide 1272, stated that he has held his
registered guide license since 2007 and he derives approximately
60-70 percent of his income from guiding. He said he is an APHA
member and he does not support HB 158. He contracts two to five
guided hunts per year. He also works for another guide on an
additional eight hunts.
MR. BARELA said the issues are related to conflict. He did not
think that HB 158, which would give DNR the authority [for
concessions] would solve the problem of transporters and air
taxis since these operators are regulated by the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA). Further, regulating game
populations is accomplished through ADF&G, not the DNR. The Big
Game Commercial Services Board (BGCSB) is tasked with
disciplining rogue and pirate guides. In fact, if the BGCSB
uses its authority it could eliminate some of the guides that
have created problems for the industry. He questioned how HB
158 will give DNR the authority to control the other huge
problems on state lands.
2:26:50 PM
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK asked whether he would support the bill if
it was under ADF&G.
MR. BARELA answered no; because there are other issues with HB
158 that would need to be changed.
2:27:19 PM
RONALD PAYNE, Registered Guide 1286, stated has been guiding
since 2006 and is not an APHA member. While he thinks something
needs to be done, he is opposed to HB 158. He said the proposed
GCP is a bad program for several reasons. First, he found most
of the APHA's testimony to be rhetorical, except for some facts
stated by Mr. Barela. Second, he did not think that anyone has
identified the true cost of the proposed[GCP].
2:28:41 PM
MR. PAYNE cited an example of how DNR never has sufficient
funding to implement its programs. He described a mining
incident that took several complaints by an Alaska State Trooper
(AST), who had observed devastation at a mine site. Several
months later DNR finally investigated the AST's complaints. He
concluded that DNR does not have the capabilities to handle the
program. He predicted it would cost hundreds of millions of
dollars in the foreseeable future. With respect to enforcement,
he pointed out the department has one Super Cub under the
Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation that has "been in
pieces" for the past two years. He questioned whether the DNR
could adequately enforce its program. Finally, he did not
believe the revenues would outweigh the costs to implement the
program.
2:30:46 PM
TIM BOOCH, Master Guide 176, Aleutian Islands Guide Service,
stated he is a 35-year resident of Kodiak, holds registered
master guide license number 176, and averages 12 hunts per year.
He conducts his hunts in guide use areas 8,9, and 10. He has
had two DNR recreational camp permits for his bear and moose
hunts since 1996. Additionally, he has two U.S. Fish & Wildlife
Service (USFWS) refuge permits. He said he is a member of the
APHA. He averages about 12 hunts a year and he participates in
drawing permit hunts. He spoke in opposition to HB 158 and to
the DNR's guide use area concession.
2:31:52 PM
MR. BOOCH outlined six alternatives to HB 158. First, he
suggested including DNR commercial recreation permit camps in
the BGCSB statute designating spacial distribution between
established guide camps statewide on state land and specifically
GMU 9. He referred to regulation 12 AAC 75.340, relating to
ethics standards for guides, which includes a provision for
buffer areas. He read, "Allow appropriate buffer areas between
hunters and camps in order to avoid disrupting hunts and hunter
experiences. In GMU 9, a person holding any class of guide
license may not place a camp within two miles of a permanent
structure or permanent camp being used for big game guide
purposes." Permanent structures or permanent cabins are not the
only established guide operations on state land anywhere in the
state. If the intent of the regulation and the BGCSB was to
identify where the established guide camps were in GMU 9, the
board could have consulted with DNR to identify the existing
camp permits or implemented it statewide.
2:32:49 PM
MR. BOOCH outlined his second recommendation, suggesting the 14-
day statewide permit should be eliminated. Specifically,
operators under this land permit have contributed to a
considerable amount of the problem. Third, he recommended that
the ADF&G demand the Board of Game (BOG) stick to the previous
10-year average when allocating percentages to drawing hunt
permits. He asserted that the APHA/DNR guide concession program
has contributed to the decline in the big game guide industry by
the BOG in its up to 10 percent non-resident precedent setting
allocation of the Delta Sheep permit. Furthermore, the APHA's
lobbying effort convinced the BOG that the implementation of the
Kodiak model drawing hunt permit guidelines model would not work
in other areas, and the concession program eliminated the need
for a drawing hunt permit. Otherwise, the BOG would have
adopted a statewide drawing hunt permit guideline for all new
and existing drawing hunts and would have applied the previous
10-year average policy.
2:34:56 PM
MR. BOOCH suggested a fourth measure, which is to implement
regulations for resident hunter ethics that mirror guide
statutes and enforce them through prosecutions, fines, and
disciplinary actions. Unless resident hunters are evaluated in
terms of their contributions to the problems, the [guides] will
continually concede the free market liberties to the federal
style bureaucratic take-over of the rest of the guide industry
on state lands.
MR. BOOCH suggested a fifth measure, which is to require all
commercial transporters providing services to big game sport
hunters to have transporter licenses with the Division of
Occupational Licensing and include commercial transporters in
the aforementioned professional ethics standards for guides His
sixth and final recommendation to address the problem, would be
to add moose to the guide-required species for non-resident
hunters.
2:36:25 PM
MIKE MCCRARY indicated he has a familiarity with the guiding
issues and he hopes this bill will not move out of the
committee. He recalled previous testimony that in 2007, former
Governor Palin instructed the DNR to collaborate with the APHA
to create this program. He characterized this as being APHA's
"special interest." The DNR would like the committee to believe
that other proposals have been through a formal vetting process;
however, no public meetings or hearings have been held to
indicate this has happened. In fact, not a single proposal has
been put through the Board of Game's vetting process that would
provide the BOG any rational basis to believe that resident
hunters and the public support the DNR's GCP program. Yet,
letters from the BOG dating back to 2007 indicate the BOG's
support for the DNR's plan.
MR. MCCRARY contrasted this with Mr. Spraker's [Chair, Board of
Game] testimony on 3/11/13, which indicated that numerous
proposals have come before the BOG to limit the numbers of non-
resident hunters. He quoted Mr. Spraker as saying, "The problem
is not too many guides. The problem is too many hunters." This
has been what Alaskans have been submitting to the BOG for
years. Essentially, Mr. Spraker has concluded that the BOG
would eventually limit the number of hunters overall, regardless
of whether the DNR's proposal is implemented or not.
2:39:00 PM
MR. MCCRARY predicted the next "bite of the apple" the APHA will
ask for is to allocate tags to guides. He turned to the cost of
the proposed program, noting the BGCSB currently does not
collect enough fees from guides to cover its operating costs.
Therefore the public has already been subsidizing the guide
industry. He said the proposed GCP will not sustain itself
since the wildlife resources cannot support it.
MR. MCCRARY addressed the contracts proposed under HB 158. He
pointed out DNR refers to permits as concession permits. The
legal meaning of lease, permit, and concession is significant.
He asserted there is no such thing as a concession permit, which
is a new legal concept developed by DNR. On 3/11/13, Mr. Clark
did not answer Representative Tarr's question, which was who can
control one of the contracts by selling the business and
transfer ownership of the contract. He stated that a
corporation cannot obtain a guide license. Under the proposed
GCP, only a person who holds a guide license can compete. In
other words, businesses cannot compete for these special rights
to hold exclusive commercial use areas on state lands, but
individuals with guide licenses can do so. Ultimately, unless
an agreement is entered into with the guide, big box outfits
could end up controlling all contracts.
MR. MCCRARY concluded by stating that the BOG's long history and
pattern of favoring commercial hunting industry is an
unsustainable wildlife conservation management practice. He
said that the problem is not too many guides, but too many
hunters.
2:42:21 PM
CHRIS BRANHAM, Master Guide 65, Branham Adventures, stated he is
a master guide, operates Branham Adventures, and derives 100
percent of his business from guiding, although 80 percent of it
is related to fish guiding. His family started the oldest
fishing lodge in Alaska in 1937.
MR. BRANHAM said if the goal of HB 158 is to give DNR the power
to limit guides and the industry, he is not in favor of the
proposal. The DNR's responsibility is over natural resources.
Hunting has nothing to do with natural resources.
2:43:42 PM
MR. BRANHAM predicted HB 158 will be ruled unconstitutional.
Second, the bill would limit competition. Third, the proposal
would prevent free enterprise. Any guide that has a concession
under a federal permit should be limited to one or two
concessions. Fourth, the proposal would not generate revenue
for the state and if limited concessions are given, the state
concessions should not add to federal concessions already held
by guides. Those guides have an exclusive privilege with
federal concessions. Fifth, the proposal would not prevent user
conflict nor ensure quality hunting experiences. Finally, the
proposed GCP does not allow for people with limited budgets to
hunt.
MR. BRANHAM proposed the committee create a guide program that
provides state leases to guides, which would allow the state an
opportunity to generate revenue and identify locations of
guides. Similar to the sport fish guiding industry daily log
reporting, guides should also be required to adhere to daily
reports. In essence, his recommendation is for DNR to have a
guide leasing program to resolve land use permitting and deal
with the other issues later.
2:45:57 PM
DON (SMOKEY) COLEMAN DUNCAN, Master Guide 136, Alaska Private
Guide Service, stated he has been guiding for 20 years,
contracts with 20 or more clients annually, and guiding provides
his sole source of income. In contrast to the APHA testifiers,
all of his guide areas are on state land. He said, "You cannot
pay me to take a federal area. In fact, the federal system
causes a lot of the problems and is known for favoring operators
who take fewer animals." Consequently, this puts the hunting
pressure on state lands. In fact, the majority of guides who
support a guide concession program conduct most of their
business on federal lands. He predicted that 50 percent of the
original supporters of the GCP no longer want it, in particular,
due to the DNR drafting of the proposal. Furthermore, the vast
majority of guides don't support the proposed GCP. If HB 158
passes, the DNR will not have any incentive to fix the program.
Likewise, if air taxis and transporters are not required to be
part of the program, the GCP will not accomplish anything,
except to put 50 percent of the current guides out of business.
Furthermore, the program will fail in court on multiple fronts
resulting in a waste of money and time.
MR. DUNCAN pointed out the pie chart of one guide per area isn't
reasonable. Besides, if 100 guides are awarded three guide use
areas, this would translate into 80 percent of the guides being
out of business for no good reason.
2:47:52 PM
MR. DUNCAN offered his belief that a realistic study has not
been done to justify any part of the program. Nor did he
believe another industry would be subjected to this type of
abuse. He has e-mailed two long letters containing truth and
facts. He asked members to please take time to read the two
letters he has sent, which will persuade members not to vote for
HB 158. He characterized this proposal as "a resource grab."
Parts of guide area unit 17 have more guides assigned than
anywhere else in the state, up to 17 guides in the area he
hunts. Basically, he has had few conflicts with residents or
guides. To a great extent, 90 percent of the complaints he has
heard related to transporters and not guides. The biggest
impact to his area has been inaction by the BOG and ADF&G. In
closing he said, "Repeating a lie over and over and over doesn't
make it true." He urged members to demand proof for these
accusations of overcrowding.
2:49:20 PM
PETE BUIST, Master Guide 79, stated he has been guiding for
about 40 years. He offered to provide his unique perspective
since he retired from 30 years' service with DNR, as well as
having served several terms with the Guide Licensing and Control
Board, the BGCSB, and on former Governor Cowper's Task Force on
Guiding and Game. He acknowledged some areas of guide
overcrowding exist, particularly in some sheep areas. However,
this is not the fault of the guides. Instead, the Owsichek
decision and Department of Commerce, Community & Economic
Development's (DCCED) policies have created this problem. For
example, the policy to allow non-residents to become licensed
guides in Alaska while insisting the guide testing system be
more egalitarian rather than a test of knowledge and ability are
the real culprits. Instead of addressing the real issues, HB
158 authorizes DNR to design a program to "limit the number of
guides working on state land." Apparently, the DNR has already
designed such a program, apparently without any statutory
authority. He predicted the system that DNR proposes will have
exactly the opposite effect. Incidentally, after working for 30
years at DNR, he is familiar with the "mindset" at DNR. He
offered his belief the DNR views this as an opportunity to put
some guides out of business and obtain a "budget booster" with
program receipts to perpetuate DNR's control.
2:51:07 PM
MR. BUIST said in his experience most DNR employees do not have
the expertise or the proper attitude to fairly administer a
guide concession program. While the Fairbanks office has done a
pretty good job of handling guide operations, guides south of
the Alaska range have been subjected to a lot of ridiculous and
unreasonable bureaucratic nonsense.
MR. BUIST predicted if HB 158 passes and DNR is authorized to
expand its control, this will only get worse. As written, the
GCP shows that most DNR employees do not have more than a vague
understanding of what is entailed in running a guide business.
Further, the DNR assumes every guide is a millionaire and needs
to share his/her fortune with DNR. As designed, the GCP would
financially prohibit and eventually phase out all but the
largest operations. In fact, the GCP could force guides to take
on an increasing number of clients on state lands in order to
pay the fees, which could exacerbate the overcrowding problems
currently experienced. He asked the committee to consider what
the bill and the proposed GCP will really do to the guide
industry instead of listening to the large-scale guides and
DNR's bureaucrats who will benefit if the bill passes.
2:52:45 PM
SAMUEL FEJES, JR., Master Guide 73, Tsui River Lodge, stated he
is a lifelong Alaska and holds master guide license number 73.
Additionally, he said he serves as an APHA board member, guiding
is his fulltime occupation, and he guides between 30-40 clients
per year. He guides on the south end of Kodiak Island and east
of Cordova. He has been guiding in Cordova area for over 30
years and in Kodiak for over 20 years. He asked to speak in
favor of HB 158. The proposed GCP is good, not just for the
guiding industry, but for resident hunters, subsistence users,
and the wildlife resources. Further, the GCP would reduce the
impact on the current state guide use areas that are
overcrowded. Likewise, the GCP could create less impact on
Alaska's wildlife resources. Over 30 years ago he was one of
three guides who applied for a state commercial lease. Since
then he has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars on his
five-acre leased parcel. He travels all over the world to hunt
and has found paying fees to the country or government is a
normal process. Subsequently, the fees guides pay will be
passed on to their clients, he said.
2:55:23 PM
CHRIS ZWOLINSKI, Master Guide 145, stated he is not a member of
the APHA, that he contracts about 4-6 hunts per year, and
approximately 60 percent of his business is based on guiding.
He related that he guides exclusively on state land. He has
been contracting hunts for 24 years on the same state lands. He
has observed an influx of guides in the past 12 years using
aircraft, which has resulted in a declining population.
Therefore he has self-regulated and has taken less game. While
he agrees that something needs to be done, did not believe that
HB 158 is the solution. He characterized the GCP as pushing
regulation that has too many flaws. He didn't want to bring up
points that have already been raised. He expressed concern
that the GCP will be "rubber stamped," which he did not want to
see this happen. He offered his belief that the DNR's program
is a start but it is too flawed in its current form.
MR. ZWOLINSKI said the issue of the transporters must be
addressed since it has a huge impact on the wildlife since it is
unregulated.
2:57:55 PM
CO-CHAIR FEIGE asked whether he has ever investigated guiding on
federal lands.
MR. ZWOLINSKI responded that he has applied for federal
concessions but has been unsuccessful.
2:58:53 PM
ALLEN (AL) BARRETTE, Class A Assistant Guide 765, stated that he
holds Class A assistant guide license number 765. To begin with
it is the DNR's mission to manage state lands for multiple use
and maximum benefit to Alaskans. While significant discussion
has ensued on the issue of overcrowding and under-utilization in
some guide use areas, the problem has resulted from DNR's
inability to manage the land. In part, some overcrowding
happens because game is productive and concentrated in some
areas but is not concentrated in others. However, the DNR has
not taken any action to improve moose habitat and population in
the Kenai area. Similarly, DNR limits access, which leads to
more overcrowding, he said. He offered his belief the DNR is
not using its authority to maximize and benefit Alaskans.
MR. BARRETTE recalled previous testimony that without this
program, the incentives to practice wildlife conservation will
disappear. However, the responsibility to manage wildlife
conservation on a sustained-yield basis rests with BOG, who sets
restrictions on antlers, full-curl sheep, sex, bag limits, and
dates for hunts. Thus, guides must work within these
guidelines.
3:01:10 PM
MR. BARRETTE predicted that DNR will be allocating permits based
on the applications indicating the amount of game an applicant
plans to take. Similar to the federal concession, the less the
guide takes, the less the imprint on the land, and the more
likely the guide will be successful in obtaining the permit. In
terms of allocation, he offered his belief it is clear that the
BOG allocates game and not the DNR and usually, the non-resident
hunters are on the lower end of the [allocation].
MR. BARRETTE added that he is a self-employed person and not one
state program is in place to try to protect his business.
3:02:22 PM
THOMAS (TOM) KIRSTEIN, Master Guide 98, Alaska Adventures
Unlimited, stated that he holds master guide license number 98.
He has been guiding for 39 years. He said hunts on the Kodiak
National Wildlife Refuge, and on two guide areas on state lands,
including one on the Alaska Peninsula and one in Interior Alaska
in unit 20-04. He typically contracts with 20 clients per year
although he has reduced that number in the past few years on
state lands due to increased hunting pressure. Prior to the
Owsichek decision in 1988, unit 20-04 was comprised of five
guides spread out in an area of about 2,000 square miles. Today
unit 20-04 is a much smaller area, about half that size, with
over 20 guides operating in this geographic area. During the
1990s the economy improved in the U.S. and after the Owsichek
decision the federal government threatened to take over
management on federal lands each year through 1992. In fact, he
offered his belief that the state neglected to act or the
problem could have been remedied. Restricted areas were thrown
out under the decision. Nevertheless, the guides are now living
with federal control on 72 percent of Alaska's lands. He said
it was much easier for guides to be licensed under deregulation,
but the only place to hunt was state lands.
MR. KIRSTEIN would like the state to fix the problem. In
essence this industry is worth at least one-third of what is
generated by tourism. This may not be a perfect venue, but DNR
has been working on for a number of years to refine and solve.
In conclusion, he would like to see the state do what's in the
best interests for the state to allow the industry to go
forward. He characterized the guiding industry as unique and a
renewable resource. He cautioned that an unlimited number of
people cannot use a limited resource. He said he's enjoyed the
very best and would like the committee to resolve the problem.
CO-CHAIR FEIGE held public testimony open on HB 158.
[HB 158 was held over.]
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| HB89 Sponsor Statement.pdf |
HRES 3/13/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 89 |
| HB89 CDFU Letter.pdf |
HRES 3/13/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 89 |
| HB89 Backup Information.pdf |
HRES 3/13/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 89 |
| HB89 CNIPM Letter.pdf |
HRES 3/13/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 89 |
| HB89 ASGA Letter.pdf |
HRES 3/13/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 89 |
| HRES HB158 Letter Packet 5.pdf |
HRES 3/13/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 158 |
| HRES HB158 Letter Packet 6.pdf |
HRES 3/13/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 158 |